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Another Obamacare Lie: ER Visits To Increase, not decrease - Page 2 - Redneck Clubhouse - Of, By and For Rednecks!

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  #11  
Old January 6th, 2014, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by trlrtrash13 View Post
I wholeheartedly agree that the one in your sig was a lie. However to call a prediction that was reasonable and most likely believed at the time a lie based on a study that comes out on a similar but still much different situation is wrong. Look at it this way. Let's say that when the actual numbers come that er visits go down, will you then say anyone who looked at this study and concludes that er visits will go up is a liar? If not, it is wrong to call Obama's projections on this matter a lie.
Except, that's not what I am doing. The "less dependence on the ER" lie was debunked long before this "study." But then still continued even when known false.

All this "study" does is reinforce the point.
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  #12  
Old January 6th, 2014, 09:04 PM
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Except, that's not what I am doing. The "less dependence on the ER" lie was debunked long before this "study." But then still continued even when known false.

All this "study" does is reinforce the point.
BS. You debunk a lie with the truth, and the numbers aren't in yet. Therefore it is impossible to know that it is a lie, yet alone debunk it. So you leave yourself wiggle room to get off the hook if the numbers come in lower. Why don't you hold yourself to the standard you are holding him to? If the 2015 numbers come in and there are fewer er visits in 2014 then you should be called a liar. If you're not willing to take that on (and I don't blame you because that would be absurd) than you shouldn't be calling this a lie now.
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  #13  
Old January 6th, 2014, 09:59 PM
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When the calls begin for "Single payer" remember that is what they wanted all along and everything Obama has done since 2008 is to move towards that goal. Everything.
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  #14  
Old January 6th, 2014, 10:40 PM
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BS. You debunk a lie with the truth, and the numbers aren't in yet. Therefore it is impossible to know that it is a lie, yet alone debunk it. So you leave yourself wiggle room to get off the hook if the numbers come in lower. Why don't you hold yourself to the standard you are holding him to? If the 2015 numbers come in and there are fewer er visits in 2014 then you should be called a liar. If you're not willing to take that on (and I don't blame you because that would be absurd) than you shouldn't be calling this a lie now.
ER visits will never cease and they won't decrease either. Every expert consulted in the formative days of this shit sandwich of a bill told them that. Now there's a "study" reflecting that.

Problem is, they were using trauma ER visits in their numbers, to exaggerate the "problem," and nothing in the Bill addresses those. If you get shot or are in a bad wreck, guess what? You still go to the ER.

It's one of many constant lies about it, to try to sell it - Obama, his menstruation, Pelosi and just about every other dem congresscritter, told over and over.

If you have Obamacare you can still go to the ER for a sniffle. And it will be covered. If you don't have Obamacare you can still go to the ER for a sniffle. Nothing in the law in any way inhibits that or affects it in any way. The entire meme is and was a false narrative.

It is a lie and it is demonstrably a lie. One of many.
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  #15  
Old January 7th, 2014, 01:40 AM
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ER visits will never cease and they won't decrease either. Every expert consulted in the formative days of this shit sandwich of a bill told them that. Now there's a "study" reflecting that.
Incorrect. This study looks only at a handful of people in Oregon who got put on to free government insurance. This does not look across the spectrum. It does not look at people who went from no insurance to insurance that they purchased, even with government subsidies. It is much more likely that a person who shopped for and purchased their own insurance would then understand that insurance and use it correctly. Again, it remains to be seen what the final numbers will be, but claiming that this is a lie based on a study of something else similar and not the same is ludicrous.

Perhaps you could take a second, look back, and see why I disappear from this site from time to time. Remember when I was on your show after Falwell died, and I talk about some of the ridiculous things he had said? You need a brake pedal, man. I am that brake pedal. Is it possible he was wrong? Absolutely. Would that make it a lie? No.
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  #16  
Old January 7th, 2014, 01:46 AM
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Incorrect. This study looks only at a handful of people in Oregon who got put on to free government insurance. This does not look across the spectrum. It does not look at people who went from no insurance to insurance that they purchased, even with government subsidies. It is much more likely that a person who shopped for and purchased their own insurance would then understand that insurance and use it correctly. Again, it remains to be seen what the final numbers will be, but claiming that this is a lie based on a study of something else similar and not the same is ludicrous.

Perhaps you could take a second, look back, and see why I disappear from this site from time to time. Remember when I was on your show after Falwell died, and I talk about some of the ridiculous things he had said? You need a brake pedal, man. I am that brake pedal. Is it possible he was wrong? Absolutely. Would that make it a lie? No.
Hey man, I don't sweat that. Calling a liar a liar and calling a lie, a lie doesn't require moderation or brake pedals. The fact is nothing in the bill goes towards reducing ER visits, it's not even addressed. And Obama, Pelosi and the whole crew knows that and knew that. Therefore claiming it so, which they did repeatedly, makes it a lie by definition. And yes we can call them out on their lies and call them liars.

They exaggerated a part of our HC system everyone hates - the ER, demonized it and lied about this law fixing it. It doesn't, it's not designed to do so and couldn't even if it was.

It's just another of the Obamacare lies.
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  #17  
Old January 7th, 2014, 03:03 AM
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Hey man, I don't sweat that. Calling a liar a liar and calling a lie, a lie doesn't require moderation or brake pedals. The fact is nothing in the bill goes towards reducing ER visits, it's not even addressed. And Obama, Pelosi and the whole crew knows that and knew that. Therefore claiming it so, which they did repeatedly, makes it a lie by definition. And yes we can call them out on their lies and call them liars.

They exaggerated a part of our HC system everyone hates - the ER, demonized it and lied about this law fixing it. It doesn't, it's not designed to do so and couldn't even if it was.

It's just another of the Obamacare lies.
That is absurd, and you should know that. That's where the brake pedal comes in. Yes, the bill actually does address that. Does it make it illegal t go to the er? No. But health insurance covers doctors visits for people who would have previously had to pay out of pocket. So to say it doesn't address it at all is incorrect.

Obamacare is one of the worst things to happen to this country. I believe that firmly. But this approach of calling this a lie is bogus. There are actual lies that were told to sell this bill. Let's settle this the easy way. If he lied, then that means that more people have gone to the er for non emergencies that had done so previously. So, link me to the statistic that shows this to be true.

I'm a guy who had insurance offered by the company that is no longer available to me, so I don't need a stat on that one.
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  #18  
Old January 7th, 2014, 06:26 AM
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I don't know how it's done in the Estados Unidos de Mexico Norte, but over here, anybody trying to push legislation - this includes the government - has to present something called a konsekvensanalys, or analysis of consequences. This are normally procured by a special government office that will take the legal proposition, send it out to concerned departments and private institutions for comments, collate those comments and present a memorandum on what fairly broad set of actors think will happen if the proposal becomes law. If the initiating party then tries to sell the proposal with grand promises that lack backing in the analysis, they can pretty much expect scorn and ridicule if it backfires in their faces. In fact, someone may point out they lied willfully. Few people, except possibly the spouses of the liars, are very concerned with this.

Ah well. We're an orderly little nation of laws, so I understand our way of doing things is not immediately transferable to Mexico Norte and its serial amnesties and ad-hoc presidential decree changes to laws on the book. But still... even if there's no formal process of trying to evaluate legislative proposals in place, I would have though there is some feedback mechanism to the expensive governmental machinery in Washington - if only to read the memos of what all the lobbyists think about it. If you then sell a law with grandiose promises that you pretty much have to know are just free fantasies pulled out of thin air... well, the choice of interpretation then becomes a liar or terminally incompetent.

I will agree with tt (!) in that on this particular issue, unlike on "you can keep your insurance", the jury is still out on whether Bambi Boy and his cronies lied or whether the whole bunch real is so inept. I will note, however, that given their astonishing track record of lies on every issue tangential to this, there terminally clueless theory is not the way the smart money would bet.
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  #19  
Old January 7th, 2014, 10:00 AM
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I believe legislators can ask the CBO to score legislation, the problem is that the legislators provide the parameters and all the presumptions and the CBO only can work within what was provided. So basically they tell the legislators what they want to hear. That's how the CBO said Obamacare would bend the cost curve down, it only went by the numbers and expectations provided by the administration. WOUld be nice if we could have some independent group do analysis but anything done at this point is dismissed as "partisan" and ignored.
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Old January 7th, 2014, 11:18 AM
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That is absurd, and you should know that. That's where the brake pedal comes in. Yes, the bill actually does address that. Does it make it illegal t go to the er? No. But health insurance covers doctors visits for people who would have previously had to pay out of pocket. So to say it doesn't address it at all is incorrect.

Obamacare is one of the worst things to happen to this country. I believe that firmly. But this approach of calling this a lie is bogus. There are actual lies that were told to sell this bill. Let's settle this the easy way. If he lied, then that means that more people have gone to the er for non emergencies that had done so previously. So, link me to the statistic that shows this to be true.

I'm a guy who had insurance offered by the company that is no longer available to me, so I don't need a stat on that one.
That in no way at all addresses what I said - whether there will be ER visits, more, less or not. That addresses whether the answer might be "yes" more often, when they ask a person if they have insurance. Right now it's LESS likely actually, since far more people have been dropped than have signed up.

(Which by the way, if you are conscious and not traumatically injured, the first question they ask in the ER is and always has been, "Do you have insurance." They don't turn people away. This hasn't changed.)

There is nothing in the law that is designed to or might reduce ER usage. Nothing at all.

For them to say it does or can, is and was a lie.

I think I'm on pretty safe ground calling Obama a liar. It's a far less arguable position than saying he's just dumb.
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