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Christianity's Doctrine of Atonement - Page 4 - Redneck Clubhouse - Of, By and For Rednecks!

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  #31  
Old June 30th, 2013, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Rawlings View Post
Christian orthodoxy 101 was not intended to be patronizing at all, merely an allusion to the fact that (1) the doctrine of atonement for the remission of sins and (2) the doctrine of Christ's divinity are theologically and historically well-established. Truly. There was nothing hurtful or petty in my heart. I couldn't possibly know anything about the extent of your religious training, what you do or don't know about the historical teachings of Christian orthodoxy.
No worries.

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Notwithstanding, I think it necessary to lean into this a bit harder given the fact that the notion that the prophets, the disciples and Jesus—that the Bible!—do not teach the blood atonement unto death for the remission of sins is false. I'm sorry if that offends you, but there's too much at stake: the difference between the truth and the lie is the difference between eternal life in Christ Jesus and eternal damnation.
I agree that the Bible teaches the blood atonement doctrine. It's the teachings of Jesus that I am focusing on. As for eternal damnation...well, best to leave that for another thread.

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And, yes, I know that according to the teachings of the religion of the Uranthia Book/Foundation that my understanding is unenlightened, afflicted by false consciousness. Have it your way. But make no mistake about it, while I didn't read the entire piece, I read more than enough to know that I'm dealing with a religion that's something akin to Mormonism, and virtually everything I did read is false, i.e., with regard to what the Bible supposedly teaches.
The Urantia Book is very different from Mormonism. What false statements about the Bible did you find?

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And how do I know this? I know this as one who’s steeped in the teachings of the Bible from cover-to-cover, as one who’s steeped in the history, the doctrine and the theology of the Bible, and as one who’s steeped in the history, the doctrine and the theology of the Church.
Then you're aware of the changes in doctrine over the centuries. Why should the evolution stop at this point in history? Do you think the early Christians who didn't believe in (or have) the blood atonement theory should face "eternal damnation"?

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Bearing in mind that we still don't have a coherent explanation for Shanbour's trivial distraction regarding who the actual debtor is in the exchange of the blood atonement unto death for the remission of sins
Are you referring to his mention of the "Christus Victor" theory? If so, I don't understand what kind of explanation you are looking for. The only explanation is that he was mentioning it in the context of his discussion on the illogic of atonement theory in general. The "Christus Victor" theory has a long history, so he included it in his analysis.

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, you write that what Shanbour "rejects is Christianity's interpretation of Jesus' words in Matthew, which creates the contradiction."

What contradiction?
I think we may be misunderstanding each other here...here's what you said:

Actually, what we have here is a wholesale contradiction between the Jesus of the Golden Rule and the prophets, the disciples and the Jesus of the remission of sins

Perhaps you could explain the contradiction you were referring to in more detail.

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Jesus' declaration regarding the shedding of His blood for the remission of sins in Matthew and elsewhere, by the way, is perfectly consistent with the teaching of the prophets throughout the Old Testament and that of the Apostles in Acts, Revelation and the epistles.
It's only consistent if you apply the Christian interpretation, but if you do, that creates a contradiction with Luke 4:43 - regarding Jesus' purpose here.

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But what you mean to imply or assert is a contradiction between Christianity and Jesus.
Yes, exactly.

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Apparently, Christianity's interpretation is man's teaching.
Yes, that's right.

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Apparently, man's teaching is that of the prophets and the Apostles whose teachings in the Old and New Testament are not, allegedly, the same as those of Christ in the Gospels.
Yes - specifically related to the blood atonement doctrine, of course.

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The simple truth is this: Prufrock's Cave
Nope.
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  #32  
Old July 3rd, 2013, 04:35 PM
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Amadon writes:

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I think we may be misunderstanding each other here...here's what you said:
Actually, what we have here is a wholesale contradiction between the Jesus of the Golden Rule and the prophets, the disciples and the Jesus of the remission of sins.
Perhaps you could explain the contradiction you were referring to in more detail.
I'm talking about the contradiction you're alleging.

Look, all you and Shanbour are really saying is that the common moral admonitions of Christ are to be understood as trumping the entire edifice of Judeo-Christianity, which is premised on the blood atonement for the remission of sins.

Shanbour's argument is a ridiculous and dangerous heresy. It's even worse than Bill Maher's foolish suggestion that homosexuality is not immoral according to Christianity because Jesus Christ never spoke specifically about homosexuality.

These things are given. Well documented. Understood. Not in doubt. Beyond all reasonable dispute. They're not mysteries. The whole point of Christ's incarnation, ministry, suffering, crucifixion, death and resurrection is the redemption of the world via the blood atonement of the eternal Lamb of God for the remission of sins. Christ said, "I have not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets . . . but to fulfill them" (Matt 5:17)! And moreover: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me" (John 10:27).

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8).

It's a simple matter to be saved: Prufrock's Cave


You guys are making things waaaay too complex.
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Last edited by Rawlings; July 3rd, 2013 at 05:04 PM.
  #33  
Old July 3rd, 2013, 07:00 PM
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It's not complicated. Christianity has elevated the teachings of men above the very words of Jesus. What Jesus taught is much simpler than the complex and inconsistent doctrines of Christianity.

But I'm happy to agree to disagree at this point.
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  #34  
Old July 4th, 2013, 11:00 AM
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It's not complicated. Christianity has elevated the teachings of men above the very words of Jesus. What Jesus taught is much simpler than the complex and inconsistent doctrines of Christianity.

But I'm happy to agree to disagree at this point.

Amandon, there is no burdensome complexity or inconsistency in the doctrines of Christianity. That's all in your head. There is only the dispute between Christianity and Uranthia. Period. But we shall have to agree to disagree.

In the meantime. . . .

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God wants us to know Him not merely as some eternal creator or as some force or power that fills the universe, but as a loving, caring Father who sent His Son to die for our sins. Jesus made it possible for us to enjoy this intimate relationship through the agency and the power of the Holy Spirit. --Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel
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Last edited by Rawlings; July 4th, 2013 at 11:05 AM.
  #35  
Old July 8th, 2013, 12:44 PM
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Amandon, there is no burdensome complexity or inconsistency in the doctrines of Christianity. That's all in your head. There is only the dispute between Christianity and Uranthia. Period. But we shall have to agree to disagree.

In the meantime. . . .
Some of the complexities and inconsistencies were nicely laid out in Shanbour's article, but you've chosen not to address them. Nothing I can do about that.

Are you trying to convert me to Christianity? I should warn you that it's utterly futile. Been there, done that.
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