free hit counter
Christianity's Doctrine of Atonement - Redneck Clubhouse - Of, By and For Rednecks!

Sunday Gota Meetin' Religion and the discussion of right and wrong

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old June 27th, 2013, 10:04 AM
Amadon's Avatar
Amadon Amadon is offline
Person of Interest
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 499
Likes Given: 24
Liked 91 in 84 Posts
Amadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really nice
Default Christianity's Doctrine of Atonement

Some of you may be familiar with the teaching that "Jesus died for our sins". Yet the teachings of Jesus, even as recorded in the Bible, are contrary to this doctrine. The choice for Christians is clear: follow the teachings of Jesus, or follow the teachings of the men who espouse the atonement doctrine.

I tried to post the entire text of this article, but the server couldn't handle it. Please follow this link if you are interested:

http://urantia-book.org/archive/readers/atonement.html
__________________





True religion is to know God as your Father and man as your brother. Religion is not a slavish belief in threats of punishment or magical promises of future mystical rewards.
- The Urantia Book
  #2  
Old June 27th, 2013, 12:01 PM
trlrtrash13's Avatar
trlrtrash13 trlrtrash13 is offline
Trailer Park Hero
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: The Trailer Park
Posts: 4,295
Likes Given: 397
Liked 972 in 790 Posts
trlrtrash13 is a splendid one to beholdtrlrtrash13 is a splendid one to beholdtrlrtrash13 is a splendid one to beholdtrlrtrash13 is a splendid one to beholdtrlrtrash13 is a splendid one to beholdtrlrtrash13 is a splendid one to beholdtrlrtrash13 is a splendid one to beholdtrlrtrash13 is a splendid one to beholdtrlrtrash13 is a splendid one to beholdtrlrtrash13 is a splendid one to beholdtrlrtrash13 is a splendid one to behold
Default

Alright, I wanted to humor you here but that is way too much reading for a subject that isn't really pertinent to me at the moment, so I will leave it to others. Out of sheer curiosity, could you give the notion a quick summary? Like 8 or 10 of the best bullet points?
__________________

You know what date is on this coin? 1958. It's been traveling 22 years to get here. And now it's here. And it's either heads or tails, and you have to say. Call it.
  #3  
Old June 27th, 2013, 01:45 PM
Amadon's Avatar
Amadon Amadon is offline
Person of Interest
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 499
Likes Given: 24
Liked 91 in 84 Posts
Amadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really nice
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by trlrtrash13 View Post
Alright, I wanted to humor you here but that is way too much reading for a subject that isn't really pertinent to me at the moment, so I will leave it to others. Out of sheer curiosity, could you give the notion a quick summary? Like 8 or 10 of the best bullet points?
Basically, the blood atonement doctrine is not supported by the words of Jesus as recorded in the Bible. When asked what the first rule for living should be, Jesus told us to love God. When asked what the second rule should be, he told us to love one another. At no point did he say "You must believe that my death was necessary to save mankind". The article has links at the top which will take you to specific areas that might be of interest. If you aren't motivated to read any of this, maybe you're in the wrong thread.
__________________





True religion is to know God as your Father and man as your brother. Religion is not a slavish belief in threats of punishment or magical promises of future mystical rewards.
- The Urantia Book
  #4  
Old June 27th, 2013, 03:54 PM
moomin's Avatar
moomin moomin is offline
COM#1
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: The Freezer
Posts: 6,997
Likes Given: 766
Liked 1,828 in 1,622 Posts
moomin has a brilliant futuremoomin has a brilliant futuremoomin has a brilliant futuremoomin has a brilliant futuremoomin has a brilliant futuremoomin has a brilliant futuremoomin has a brilliant futuremoomin has a brilliant futuremoomin has a brilliant futuremoomin has a brilliant futuremoomin has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadon View Post
At no point did he say "You must believe that my death was necessary to save mankind".
I don't have a dog in this hunt, but doesn't that, sort of, have some pretty serious chronology issues?
  #5  
Old June 28th, 2013, 09:10 AM
Amadon's Avatar
Amadon Amadon is offline
Person of Interest
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 499
Likes Given: 24
Liked 91 in 84 Posts
Amadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really nice
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moomin View Post
I don't have a dog in this hunt, but doesn't that, sort of, have some pretty serious chronology issues?
My bad, I probably should've made it future tense.
__________________





True religion is to know God as your Father and man as your brother. Religion is not a slavish belief in threats of punishment or magical promises of future mystical rewards.
- The Urantia Book
  #6  
Old June 27th, 2013, 01:16 PM
fyrenza's Avatar
fyrenza fyrenza is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 562
Likes Given: 129
Liked 75 in 67 Posts
fyrenza is a name known to allfyrenza is a name known to allfyrenza is a name known to allfyrenza is a name known to allfyrenza is a name known to allfyrenza is a name known to allfyrenza is a name known to allfyrenza is a name known to allfyrenza is a name known to allfyrenza is a name known to allfyrenza is a name known to all
Default

S/He's actually having to read, themselves,
or they don't "get" the whole Copy & Paste option.

HEY! It's been OVER an hour ...
__________________

Last edited by fyrenza; June 27th, 2013 at 01:19 PM.
  #7  
Old June 27th, 2013, 04:27 PM
walruskkkch's Avatar
walruskkkch walruskkkch is offline
They call me MR. Kitty
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Katmandhu
Posts: 6,818
Likes Given: 154
Liked 2,313 in 1,940 Posts
walruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant future
Default

After the resurrection.
__________________


Quote:
I think its unfair. We voted for Hillary Clinton, but it is Trump who won. It is unfair, Helose said.
Gentlemen, he said I don't need your organization, I've shined your shoes
I've moved your mountains and marked your cards
But Eden is burning either brace yourself for elimination
Or else your hearts must have the courage for the changing of the guards.
  #8  
Old June 27th, 2013, 04:29 PM
walruskkkch's Avatar
walruskkkch walruskkkch is offline
They call me MR. Kitty
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Katmandhu
Posts: 6,818
Likes Given: 154
Liked 2,313 in 1,940 Posts
walruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant future
Default

And I think there is a mistake about it not appearing in the Bible.

Romans 4:25
__________________


Quote:
I think its unfair. We voted for Hillary Clinton, but it is Trump who won. It is unfair, Helose said.
Gentlemen, he said I don't need your organization, I've shined your shoes
I've moved your mountains and marked your cards
But Eden is burning either brace yourself for elimination
Or else your hearts must have the courage for the changing of the guards.
  #9  
Old June 27th, 2013, 04:34 PM
walruskkkch's Avatar
walruskkkch walruskkkch is offline
They call me MR. Kitty
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Katmandhu
Posts: 6,818
Likes Given: 154
Liked 2,313 in 1,940 Posts
walruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant future
Default

I guess if you want to say, Jesus never said it, you are right. But it is in the Bible and is there for a reason. This interpretation.

Quote:
He died in the room and stead of his people, and by dying made satisfaction for their sins; he rose again as their head and representative, and was legally discharged, acquitted, and justified, and they in him. Christ's resurrection did not procure the justification of his people, that was done by his obedience and death; but was for the testification of it, that it might fully appear that sin was atoned for, and an everlasting righteousness was brought in; and for the application of it, or that Christ might live and see his righteousness imputed, and applied to all those for whom he had wrought it out.
__________________


Quote:
I think its unfair. We voted for Hillary Clinton, but it is Trump who won. It is unfair, Helose said.
Gentlemen, he said I don't need your organization, I've shined your shoes
I've moved your mountains and marked your cards
But Eden is burning either brace yourself for elimination
Or else your hearts must have the courage for the changing of the guards.
  #10  
Old June 28th, 2013, 09:16 AM
Amadon's Avatar
Amadon Amadon is offline
Person of Interest
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 499
Likes Given: 24
Liked 91 in 84 Posts
Amadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really nice
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by walruskkkch View Post
I guess if you want to say, Jesus never said it, you are right. But it is in the Bible and is there for a reason. This interpretation.
When we have a conflict between what Jesus said, and what subsequent Christian writers said/say, which do you think should take precedence? From the article:

Quote:

III. WAS CHRIST'S CRUCIFIXION NECESSARY
BEFORE WE COULD HAVE ETERNAL LIFE?

According to the basic component of the Blood Atonement Doctrine, to have eternal life and salvation, Christ had to die on the cross. Moreover, many Christian Churches teach that not only did Christ have to die on the cross to atone for our sins, but one also had to believe in this doctrine before that person could have eternal life. The following are passages which contain all the verses where Jesus explicitly addresses the subject of what is required to have eternal life:

ACCORDING TO JESUS: WHAT IS REQUIRED FOR ETERNAL LIFE?

BELIEF IN JESUS:


NIV John 3:15-16

15. that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

16. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

NIV John 3:36

36. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,

NIV John 5:24

24. "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

NIV John 6:40

40. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

SUMMARY:

According to the canonical Gospel of John, one has to believe in the words of Jesus and his teachings to have eternal life. Jesus did not state that one had to believe in him AND any other Christian writers who will come after him whose writings were voted by certain human Bishops of the early church to be the "Word of God."(15) Since belief in Jesus' words were necessary to have eternal life, the question now becomes what were these words regarding personal salvation? The following passages contain all the verses where Jesus explicitly address how one may obtain eternal life:

B. FOLLOW JESUS' COMMANDMENTS:

LOVE THE FATHER AND LOVE THY NEIGHBOR


NIV Matthew 22:35-40

35. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:

36. "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"

37. Jesus replied: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'

38. This is the first and greatest commandment.

39. And the second is like it: `Love your neighbor as yourself.'

40. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

a. WHAT IS THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS?

NIV Matthew 7:12

12. So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

NIV Mark 12:28-31

28. One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29. "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: `Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

30. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'

31. The second is this: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

NIV Luke 10:25-28

25. On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26. "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

27. He answered: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, `Love your neighbor as yourself.' "

28. "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

WHO IS MY NEIGHBOR?


NIV Luke 10:36-37 (parable of the Good Samaritan)

36. "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

37. The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS JESUS LOVED



NIV John 13:34

34. "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

NIV John 15:12

12. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

NIV John 15:17

17. This is my command: Love each other.

INCLUDING THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE AND ARE MY ENEMIES?

NIV Matthew 5:43-44

43. "You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor
and hate your enemy.'
44. But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

NIV Luke 6:35

35. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

NIV Matthew 25:40

40. "The King will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

SUMMARY:

According to all four Gospels, Love is the only requisite to obtaining eternal life. Specifically, love the Heavenly Father and love one's fellow man regardless of how godless they may seem (i.e. love your enemies and the untouchable humans "Samaritan"(16)). Moreover, this love should be to the same depth as the love Jesus had for all men and women. Absent is any indication that Jesus had to die on the cross before eternal life could be obtained by the individual. In fact, according to Luke 10:25-28, Jesus specifically states that if one loves the father with all his/her heart, mind and soul and loves his neighbor as himself/herself, then that person shall have eternal life, nothing more and nothing less. To add any extra prerequisites for eternal life would contradict these explicit and unequivocal statements made by Jesus. Therefore, the requisite that one should believe the Blood Atonement Doctrine before eternal salvation can be had is an unnecessary burden placed upon the evolving mortal soul.
__________________





True religion is to know God as your Father and man as your brother. Religion is not a slavish belief in threats of punishment or magical promises of future mystical rewards.
- The Urantia Book
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:20 AM.

Powered by vBulletin, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content copyright ©2000 - 2018 usmessageboards.com all rights reserved