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  #11  
Old July 10th, 2014, 04:42 AM
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It seems we have all collectively passed the point of no return on responsible voting without significant suffering to prompt it. Apparently the American electorate, like the various European, need to have its face stomped to the curb by unemployment, criminality, disease and death before it can wean itself off the welfare vote. So be it.
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  #12  
Old July 10th, 2014, 06:36 AM
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A new approach is exactly what I've been working towards. Unfortunately, that new approach seems to terrify you. That approach is to hold the politicians to account for their votes and if they're no longer working to serve the people but instead are working to cement their own power and wealth, vote them out of office. If the voters punish the bad politicians with removal, you'll find the remaining pols much more responsive to those phone calls. We should no longer be held hostage to party politics. Politicians should fear the voters.
Newsflash. A) That is not a new approach and B) you can only vote out 2 Senators, one congressman, and a Presidential ticket. That leaves 98 Senators and several hundred congressmen completely unaffected by your actions. I'll tell you what, let me try putting it this way.

Let's say for a second you live at an intersection where traffic is controlled by a 4 way stop. You have lived there for 30 years, and for the past 30 years you have watched cars blow through the thing without even slowing down. You have called the Sheriff asking him to patrol, and he said he would but no cop ever showed up. You voted that Sheriff out, and replaced him with one that said he would patrol it. Again, no deputy. You call repeatedly asking when he is going to live up to his promise and every time he assures you that he will get right on it. Nothing happens.

You're standing in the kitchen and your child says "Mom, I'm going to go play at the park across the street" and you say to him which of the following?
  1. When you cross the road, be careful of cars pulling away from the stop sign.
  2. When you cross the road, remember that nobody stops at those signs so look for cars off in the distance and do not cross until they have passed.

If you answered #1 than you are a rigid ideologue. The law is the law, and it is a good law, and if it were enforced the intersection would be safe. You will not bend to the reality of the situation. You will not act as if the law doesn't exist just because everyone else does. You are sticking to your guns and consequences be damned.

If you answered #2 you are a pragmatist. You have principals, and so you fought to protect a good law and have it enforced so you could have a safe intersection. However, you understand the reality of the situation and you act according to that reality. You don't assume that today will be the first day that the deputy shows up and traffic responds to his presence by honoring the law.

Now with all due respect, I have seen the results of the Tea Party voting campaign. You voted out a pro amnesty Senator and replaced him with the very guy that drew up a large portion of what you now call amnesty. Not exactly fearing the voters there now, is he? If you vote him out and replace him, will the next one? You see the problem here? These are six year terms. Best case scenario your plan is a 12 year plan. Worst case it is the failure that early results indicate that it is. Why do you continue to live in the world of ideology? If you answered #1 I think you are crazy and a bad mother, but I can at the very least respect the fact that you stick to your guns no matter what. If you answered #2 than why do you refuse to accept the reality here? Is it because your decision here doesn't endanger the life of your child? If so, are you not saying this issue really isn't important enough for you to be so concerned about it in the first place?

We agree here on the ideology, hence you think I'm "sharp" sometimes. I wish there wasn't a 30 year track record of failure to enforce the law. I wish our border was respected by a majority who wouldn't dare cross it illegally and patrolled for the remaining few crazy enough to try it. I wish we were talking about what to do with the few hundred, or even thousand that had managed to get through despite our best efforts. However, I live in reality. I live inside of a border that is respected by none, trampled on by the masses, and patrolled by a system that has been outmaneuvered by tens of millions. 30 years, Vel. Probably longer, but for 30 years this has been going on. Do you understand how long that is? It is 5 times as long as the term that Marco Rubio, the very result of your "vote them out and vote in those who will" policy will serve. Yeah, better make that 36 years, right? By my calculations, that would make the 6th generation of those of your ilk getting duped. How many more times should I try it your way? Once? Twice? If you fail again, how many millions more will be sitting on my doorstep in the next six or twelve years that 1 or 2 failures take to elapse? It is insanity fueled by ideology.

I lost, you lost, we all lost. Time to cut our losses. Fooled me one generation, shame on you. I'm not giving you the next one. Implement E-Verify and dry up the jobs for illegals. Increase enforcement and catch the ones that still wish to come. I'll trade you keeping the huddled masses yearning to mooch. You know why? Because they are already here, they are already mooching, and under our current structure they will still be here 50 years from now along with the next generation of border jumpers. And that is why you think I'm clueless. Because I get off the ideology train when Conductor Reality says "Last stop, Montauk" and you're still sitting there thinking you're going somewhere. Is this the best deal? No. It is the best deal you're going to get. And that, my friend, is reality.
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  #13  
Old July 10th, 2014, 11:05 PM
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If you want to effect change, then you're going to have to do what you can to replace the do nothing Sheriff at every election. And you hope that those next to you replace their Sheriff when he gets caught lying to the electorate too. Doing anything less makes you complicit in the corruption. You'll never stop the corruption by giving those fomenting it what they want. If enough voters in enough states decide that they've had enough of lying politicians feathering their own nests with taxpayer funds, then DC will get a bath.
  #14  
Old July 11th, 2014, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by trlrtrash13 View Post
Now with all due respect, I have seen the results of the Tea Party voting campaign. You voted out a pro amnesty Senator and replaced him with the very guy that drew up a large portion of what you now call amnesty. Not exactly fearing the voters there now, is he? If you vote him out and replace him, will the next one?
Well, this is supposed to be the modus operandi of a working representative democracy. If the representatives fear the people enough, fine. If not, try again. The alternative you suggest seems to be "they don't fear us, so we might as well give up and let them have it their way". A time honoured practice in most of the world, where nobody actually takes neither democracy or representative seriously. In the few hundred years we've been practicing something else than despotism in the West, that is, however, not the normal response - if you conclude that your beloved representatives don't fear the voting booth, you swing politicians from lamp posts. They are guaranteed to fear that.
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We agree here on the ideology, hence you think I'm "sharp" sometimes. I wish there wasn't a 30 year track record of failure to enforce the law. I wish our border was respected by a majority who wouldn't dare cross it illegally and patrolled for the remaining few crazy enough to try it. I wish we were talking about what to do with the few hundred, or even thousand that had managed to get through despite our best efforts. However, I live in reality. I live inside of a border that is respected by none, trampled on by the masses, and patrolled by a system that has been outmaneuvered by tens of millions. 30 years, Vel. Probably longer, but for 30 years this has been going on. Do you understand how long that is? It is 5 times as long as the term that Marco Rubio, the very result of your "vote them out and vote in those who will" policy will serve. Yeah, better make that 36 years, right? By my calculations, that would make the 6th generation of those of your ilk getting duped. How many more times should I try it your way? Once? Twice? If you fail again, how many millions more will be sitting on my doorstep in the next six or twelve years that 1 or 2 failures take to elapse? It is insanity fueled by ideology.

I lost, you lost, we all lost. Time to cut our losses. Fooled me one generation, shame on you. I'm not giving you the next one. Implement E-Verify and dry up the jobs for illegals. Increase enforcement and catch the ones that still wish to come. I'll trade you keeping the huddled masses yearning to mooch. You know why? Because they are already here, they are already mooching, and under our current structure they will still be here 50 years from now along with the next generation of border jumpers. And that is why you think I'm clueless. Because I get off the ideology train when Conductor Reality says "Last stop, Montauk" and you're still sitting there thinking you're going somewhere. Is this the best deal? No. It is the best deal you're going to get. And that, my friend, is reality.
All that is mighty fine. But your "stop that" and not doing the same thing over and over again - which, in itself, is a most admirable notion - seems to be to legalize the very thing that you've outlined above. How successful that policy is is currently being showcased in TX.
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  #15  
Old July 11th, 2014, 08:45 AM
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Well, this is supposed to be the modus operandi of a working representative democracy. If the representatives fear the people enough, fine. If not, try again.
This is so far from the truth that I can't imagine you honestly believe that. It doesn't take a lot of digging to figure out what a representative republic (we are a republic, not a democracy btw) is supposed to be. Notice the word "Representative"? Your leaders are supposed to be doing what you want because you have elected people that are of a like mind, not because they fear you.

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The alternative you suggest seems to be "they don't fear us, so we might as well give up and let them have it their way".
If it seems that way to you, than you either are not reading what I am saying or you can't comprehend the concept. Don't look now, but they have it their way. What I am suggesting is that we have it our way. E Verify and secure borders.

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All that is mighty fine. But your "stop that" and not doing the same thing over and over again - which, in itself, is a most admirable notion - seems to be to legalize the very thing that you've outlined above. How successful that policy is is currently being showcased in TX.
You are so intellectually lazy on this argument. How many times are you going to claim that a plan that I supported but that did not pass is responsible for a current mess? If you were honest here, you would be blaming the people who opposed this plan and opted instead to keep the system that is allowing this to happen. But that is the net sum result of ideological politics. When your idea goes to crap, you blame the other side or the current environment. It can't possibly be the fault of the policy, because your ideology supports the policy. Wake up and smell the coffee, man. If you don't like the current system, I get that. But quit blaming those who see it for the mess it is and want to change it and start blaming the people who oppose any attempt to fix it.
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  #16  
Old July 11th, 2014, 09:37 AM
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If it seems that way to you, than you either are not reading what I am saying or you can't comprehend the concept. Don't look now, but they have it their way. What I am suggesting is that we have it our way. E Verify and secure borders.
Your way basically allows politicians to commit extortion against the public. Can you really not see that? The democrats want welfare expansion in order to ensure that once that the new "citizens" are beholden to their party for their sustenance and will vote to keep them in power. The republicans are looking to gain a low wage workforce to benefit the high powered political donors in order to keep their money flowing. The only thing the people get your way is another promise. So what happens after you pay the extortion and you don't get your secure border? What's your answer after you're supporting another 50 million people via welfare and there are still thousands streaming across the border? What do you plan to do then?
  #17  
Old July 11th, 2014, 03:37 PM
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Your way basically allows politicians to commit extortion against the public. Can you really not see that? The democrats want welfare expansion in order to ensure that once that the new "citizens" are beholden to their party for their sustenance and will vote to keep them in power. The republicans are looking to gain a low wage workforce to benefit the high powered political donors in order to keep their money flowing. The only thing the people get your way is another promise. So what happens after you pay the extortion and you don't get your secure border? What's your answer after you're supporting another 50 million people via welfare and there are still thousands streaming across the border? What do you plan to do then?
You answer those questions. Your way (keeping the old laws, and voting out a Senator every 6 years) does all of the exact same things with no promise of a secure border and no e-verify to discourage the illegal immigration. You forget that your estimate that I won't get what is promised is based on the blatant and obvious failure of your way. You can't assume that my way won't work simply because your way isn't working.

All you are doing here is proving how little faith you have in what you are doing. Think about it. The law has strong improvements to border security and workplace enforcement. Your lectures to me are that the law will never be enforced. Why not? Aren't you going to keep doing what you are doing? So of course it will be enforced because you are going to vote out all of the people that refuse to enforce it and replace them with people who will. Right Vel?
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  #18  
Old July 11th, 2014, 06:39 PM
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I know my answers to the questions. I asked you for yours. Tell me what the plan should be if you've been promised border security and an end to illegal immigration in exchange for allowing the illegals to stay and eventually become citizens and you realize that they hoodwinked you and that millions more illegal aliens are being added to the rolls and no security in site. Give us a plan.
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Old July 11th, 2014, 07:12 PM
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I know my answers to the questions. I asked you for yours. Tell me what the plan should be if you've been promised border security and an end to illegal immigration in exchange for allowing the illegals to stay and eventually become citizens and you realize that they hoodwinked you and that millions more illegal aliens are being added to the rolls and no security in site. Give us a plan.
Alright, my plan is for you and your fellow tea party people to vote out those who won't enforce the law and vote in those who will.
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Old July 13th, 2014, 11:19 AM
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This is so far from the truth that I can't imagine you honestly believe that. It doesn't take a lot of digging to figure out what a representative republic (we are a republic, not a democracy btw) is supposed to be. Notice the word "Representative"? Your leaders are supposed to be doing what you want because you have elected people that are of a like mind, not because they fear you.
Heh. That works roughly the first generation a democracy operates. Then prospective politicos find out the easiest way to get elected is to promise their voters other people's money, at which point lobbyism and cronyism sets in. The only thing that keeps politico's somewhat in check after that is fear. Fear that they will be removed from the feeding trough of power. How long this fear can be credibly maintained is the chief determinant of how long-lived a democratic state will be. Once you reach the point where politicos do not fear the electorate at all any more, the clock to collapse and social disintegration and large-scale violence starts ticking. Your own original framers knew this very well and designed a system with competing power centra that were supposed to keep each other in check - an exercise in suspicion and fear, you'll note - and which served remarkably well for a remarkably long time.
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If it seems that way to you, than you either are not reading what I am saying or you can't comprehend the concept. Don't look now, but they have it their way. What I am suggesting is that we have it our way. E Verify and secure borders.
Sure. But why does E-verify and secure borders require the legalization of 15-30M illegal welfare moochers first?
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You are so intellectually lazy on this argument. How many times are you going to claim that a plan that I supported but that did not pass is responsible for a current mess?
I do not. I just say I find it remarkable that the plan you supported basically says "welfare parasitism on this scale is terribly bad, so let's LEGALIZE it and suddenly it will be alrite"! It does jack shit to address the problem and exacerbates it by confirming to every third worlder hungry for EBT and Obamaphones that there are absolutely no downsides to trying, since amnesty will be forthcoming and deportation won't. Note that it was just this - telling the third world that a class of welfare parasites would now officially be guaranteed to stay and mooch - that triggered the latest "border crisis".

Speaking of which: isn't it fun when MA liberals, who have been all so condescending about those primitive red-staters at the border who complain about wee innocent children, are suddenly peeing their panties in angst when said wee innocent children turn up in their own neighbourhood?

Illegal immigrants flown to Bay State | Boston Herald

Quote:
Illegal immigrants are being secretly flown to Massachusetts and kept in local lockups in an under-the-radar operation that has alarmed lawmen who are raising health and security concerns amid recent spikes in detainees coming up from Texas during the latest border crisis.

“We’re all becoming border sheriffs now with these people being carted all over the country,” said Bristol County Sheriff Thomas M. Hodgson.

“The blame goes all the way up. It’s a travesty and people ought to be upset,” Hodgson said. “This is un-American and has raised the stakes to the public health and public safety threat.”

Hodgson said buses from his facility were recently used to transport six planeloads of illegals sent up from San Antonio to Hanscom Field in Bedford en route to the Plymouth County 
Correctional Facility.
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