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Another Obamacare Lie: ER Visits To Increase, not decrease - Page 3 - Redneck Clubhouse - Of, By and For Rednecks!

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  #21  
Old January 7th, 2014, 11:27 AM
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I do know for sure what has reduced ER visits in my region the last 20 years - independently owned, 24 hour service, minor emergency centers. These little storefront clinics have sprouted up everywhere in this region the last 20 years, even in most all of the small towns. This is where Mom takes little Tommy for his broken arm he got falling out of a tree now, not to the ER.

Gee, a free market solution solves a problem again, not the government.
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  #22  
Old January 7th, 2014, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Midnight Marauder View Post
That in no way at all addresses what I said - whether there will be ER visits, more, less or not. That addresses whether the answer might be "yes" more often, when they ask a person if they have insurance. Right now it's LESS likely actually, since far more people have been dropped than have signed up.

(Which by the way, if you are conscious and not traumatically injured, the first question they ask in the ER is and always has been, "Do you have insurance." They don't turn people away. This hasn't changed.)

There is nothing in the law that is designed to or might reduce ER usage. Nothing at all.

For them to say it does or can, is and was a lie.

I think I'm on pretty safe ground calling Obama a liar. It's a far less arguable position than saying he's just dumb.
The problem with this statement is that I have talked to you enough to know you know better than what you are saying here. You are purposely playing "thick" on this one, and I am disappointed that you thought you could get it by me.

You are dealing with only traumatic injuries in your statement, but you know that is not the only reason that people go to the ER. If a kid starts showing symptoms of the flu and a doctors visit is $200 cash up front and the mother doesn't have $200, where does she go? The ER. If she has insurance with no or low co-pay, where does she go? Neither one of us can answer this question for sure, but what we do know is that now she has a legitimate second option. Does this law prevent her from choosing the ER? No. But it does increase the likelihood that she will not.

The study in question didn't involve one single individual who went out and chose an insurance policy. It dealt only with people who won a lottery to get on medicade. Is it more or less likely that an individual who shopped for insurance policies and selected one will know what the insurance covers and how to use it as compared to a person who simply received a notice that they are now covered. It is more likely, and hence it is more likely that they would know what doctor to go to and what the cost would be if any.

Your statement that this bill does nothing about ER visits is flat out wrong. It doesn't end er visits, or even guarantee that they will be limited to legitimate emergencies, but it does address the problem. And based on the fact that this study does not use a similar control group to the national issue, I am not convinced that the results will be the same. They could be, but that remains to be seen. And since a reasonable person who is opposed to the law is looking at this and can't yet be convinced that it is even wrong, it certainly doesn't meet the threshold of a lie.

As per your free market solutions, the free market always handles things better. This shouldn't be a shock to anyone. I'm not arguing that Obamacare is a great plan, I'm simply saying that it does address this issue and I'm not entirely convinced that it won't work to some degree.
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  #23  
Old January 7th, 2014, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by trlrtrash13 View Post
The problem with this statement is that I have talked to you enough to know you know better than what you are saying here. You are purposely playing "thick" on this one, and I am disappointed that you thought you could get it by me.

You are dealing with only traumatic injuries in your statement, but you know that is not the only reason that people go to the ER. If a kid starts showing symptoms of the flu and a doctors visit is $200 cash up front and the mother doesn't have $200, where does she go? The ER. If she has insurance with no or low co-pay, where does she go? Neither one of us can answer this question for sure, but what we do know is that now she has a legitimate second option. Does this law prevent her from choosing the ER? No. But it does increase the likelihood that she will not.

The study in question didn't involve one single individual who went out and chose an insurance policy. It dealt only with people who won a lottery to get on medicade. Is it more or less likely that an individual who shopped for insurance policies and selected one will know what the insurance covers and how to use it as compared to a person who simply received a notice that they are now covered. It is more likely, and hence it is more likely that they would know what doctor to go to and what the cost would be if any.

Your statement that this bill does nothing about ER visits is flat out wrong. It doesn't end er visits, or even guarantee that they will be limited to legitimate emergencies, but it does address the problem. And based on the fact that this study does not use a similar control group to the national issue, I am not convinced that the results will be the same. They could be, but that remains to be seen. And since a reasonable person who is opposed to the law is looking at this and can't yet be convinced that it is even wrong, it certainly doesn't meet the threshold of a lie.

As per your free market solutions, the free market always handles things better. This shouldn't be a shock to anyone. I'm not arguing that Obamacare is a great plan, I'm simply saying that it does address this issue and I'm not entirely convinced that it won't work to some degree.
(First bolded) I suppose you're not actually reading my posts, or you wouldn't have made assumption about something I already covered and does not match your assumption. I am not and never was talking about only traumatic injuries. Far from it.

(Second bolded) That wasn't my statement. My statement was and is, that the law does nothing at all and has nothing in it to reduce the need for ER visits or to reduce dependence on the ER. And it doesn't.

The threshold of a lie is continuing to say something you know is incorrect, especially in order to sell something you want people to buy. ER visits will never cease and they won't decrease either, and every expert consulted in the formative days of this shit sandwich of a bill told them that. Therefore3 they knew that to claim so was false, and that makes it a lie.

See? It's easy to dismiss what someone is saying, when you don't even pay attention to what they're actually saying. It works in a singular sort of way - works for you internally, but not for the reader.

Let's not forget your first post in this thread and my reply to it.
Quote:
So Obama lied in 2008 because a study done in 2014 predicts different ones than he predicted then?
My answer is no, his lying has nothing to do with this "study" and has everything to do with the facts at the time he lied.

And it wasn't just one lie in 2008, it was this same lie over and over again during the time they were trying to sell this shit sandwich.
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  #24  
Old January 7th, 2014, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Midnight Marauder View Post
(First bolded) I suppose you're not actually reading my posts, or you wouldn't have made assumption about something I already covered and does not match your assumption. I am not and never was talking about only traumatic injuries. Far from it.

(Second bolded) That wasn't my statement. My statement was and is, that the law does nothing at all and has nothing in it to reduce the need for ER visits or to reduce dependence on the ER. And it doesn't.

The threshold of a lie is continuing to say something you know is incorrect, especially in order to sell something you want people to buy. ER visits will never cease and they won't decrease either, and every expert consulted in the formative days of this shit sandwich of a bill told them that. Therefore3 they knew that to claim so was false, and that makes it a lie.

See? It's easy to dismiss what someone is saying, when you don't even pay attention to what they're actually saying. It works in a singular sort of way - works for you internally, but not for the reader.

Let's not forget your first post in this thread and my reply to it.My answer is no, his lying has nothing to do with this "study" and has everything to do with the facts at the time he lied.

And it wasn't just one lie in 2008, it was this same lie over and over again during the time they were trying to sell this shit sandwich.
You're being positively ludicrous now. Read the post I quoted and tell me where you say one damned thing about anything other than trauma in it. As I said...

Quote:
You are dealing with only traumatic injuries in your statement,
And that was correct. I quoted the entire post in the quote, and you know that the statement is accurate. Don't go back to old posts and try to claim you said it somewhere else because if I were replying to them I would have quoted them.

Secondly, you haven't linked or quoted one damn expert that supposedly said this from day one. Why? Because you know that even if you found one such expert I would find one that said it would make a difference and it still wouldn't qualify as a lie.

Now, look at the bolded above and then read this quote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight Marauder View Post
There is nothing in the law that is designed to or might reduce ER usage. Nothing at all.
Now here is what I said that you said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trlrtrash13 View Post
Your statement that this bill does nothing about ER visits is flat out wrong.
You said nothing in there about reducing the need for er visits. You might have meant to, but you didn't. You said "usage" and I said "visits."

All of this is minutiae anyway designed to detract from the fact that you are wrong in this. In order for something to be a lie, it has to be inaccurate, and we have no idea right now if this statement is or not. You are just married to your incorrect notion that every selling point was a lie.

(Second bolded) I did read it and pay attention. Perhaps you should pay attention to what you actually said.
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  #25  
Old January 7th, 2014, 05:07 PM
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You're being positively ludicrous now. Read the post I quoted and tell me where you say one damned thing about anything other than trauma in it.
Well, my understanding and reading, and comprehension of the English language tells me I was talking about just the opposite:This is what has me wondering if you are really reading. How could anyone conclude from that, I was talking about only trauma? I was talking about anything OTHER than trauma.
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Old January 7th, 2014, 05:26 PM
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Well, my understanding and reading, and comprehension of the English language tells me I was talking about just the opposite:

This is what has me wondering if you are really reading. How could anyone conclude from that, I was talking about only trauma? I was talking about anything OTHER than trauma.
Alright, you got me there. The "If you are conscious" part implies a traumatic injury, and the word trauma was in it. But obviously I read it wrong. So from that you conclude that I wasn't reading what you typed.

Now, on to the next part... were you reading what you typed? Because you didn't address reducing the need for er visits as you claimed, you simply addressed the frequency of them like I said.
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Old January 7th, 2014, 07:28 PM
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Alright, you got me there. The "If you are conscious" part implies a traumatic injury, and the word trauma was in it. But obviously I read it wrong. So from that you conclude that I wasn't reading what you typed.

Now, on to the next part... were you reading what you typed? Because you didn't address reducing the need for er visits as you claimed, you simply addressed the frequency of them like I said.
The only thing the law ostensibly does, is gave people a way to pay for their ER visit. It does not help them make a choice not to go there. There is nothing in it that would reduce ER visits or service.

Not sure if this is nationwide, but here in Texas the designated regional medical center HAS to treat you regardless of your ability to pay. It is called indigent care. They can't turn little Jimmy's ingrown toenail away because his mom doesn't have insurance, or 200 dollars. What they do is, treat Jimmy and bill mommy. If mommy doesn't pay the bill it goes to a collection agency and if they get no resolve there, it gets written off at the state level. (This is providing of course that Mommy also has no real property, because if she does they attach a lien on it.)

Obama lied repeatedly saying Obamacare would reduce ER visits. The AP fact checker even gave him four Pinocchios on that. Because there is nothing in the law that would lead to fewer ER visits or less use of it.

I'm calling Obama a liar on that because he is and it's perfectly okay if you don't - I'm not trying to convince you.
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Old January 7th, 2014, 07:36 PM
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The only thing the law ostensibly does, is gave people a way to pay for their ER visit. It does not help them make a choice not to go there. There is nothing in it that would reduce ER visits or service.

Not sure if this is nationwide, but here in Texas the designated regional medical center HAS to treat you regardless of your ability to pay. It is called indigent care. They can't turn little Jimmy's ingrown toenail away because his mom doesn't have insurance, or 200 dollars. What they do is, treat Jimmy and bill mommy. If mommy doesn't pay the bill it goes to a collection agency and if they get no resolve there, it gets written off at the state level. (This is providing of course that Mommy also has no real property, because if she does they attach a lien on it.)

Obama lied repeatedly saying Obamacare would reduce ER visits. The AP fact checker even gave him four Pinocchios on that. Because there is nothing in the law that would lead to fewer ER visits or less use of it.

I'm calling Obama a liar on that because he is and it's perfectly okay if you don't - I'm not trying to convince you.
That is the nationwide policy, and that is precisely why you are wrong. If I have no insurance and no money I have to go to the emergency room if I am going to receive treatment. If I have insurance and no money I have the option of a doctor visit or the emergency room. If you can't understand that, I have no better way of breaking that down. If you do understand that, than you should also understand that your claim above that there is nothing in there that would reduce the number of er visits is an assumption on your part.

Please link me to the fact checker you speak of because I am unable to find it on google.
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  #29  
Old January 7th, 2014, 08:20 PM
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That is the nationwide policy, and that is precisely why you are wrong. If I have no insurance and no money I have to go to the emergency room if I am going to receive treatment. If I have insurance and no money I have the option of a doctor visit or the emergency room. If you can't understand that, I have no better way of breaking that down. If you do understand that, than you should also understand that your claim above that there is nothing in there that would reduce the number of er visits is an assumption on your part.

Please link me to the fact checker you speak of because I am unable to find it on google.
But, that wasn't the claim, number one, and number two, doctor's offices aren't open 24/7.

Obama lied, people died. If you don't want to call him a liar that is fine with me. It should equally be just fine with you, if I want to call him one. because he is.

His claim that the ACA will reduce ER visits was a lie from the start and is still a lie today.
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Old January 7th, 2014, 09:01 PM
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But, that wasn't the claim, number one, and number two, doctor's offices aren't open 24/7.

Obama lied, people died. If you don't want to call him a liar that is fine with me. It should equally be just fine with you, if I want to call him one. because he is.

His claim that the ACA will reduce ER visits was a lie from the start and is still a lie today.
The claim was that it will reduce visits. That is how it is expected to reduce visits. That is exactly what the claim was.


Now you are trying to straw man me on this. I never said it was not okay for you to call him a liar, and I did in fact call him a liar. What we are debating here is this statement, not the honesty of the individual making it.

Now, the link to the fact check article please. I even searched their site and the only thing that is coming up on er visits is this, and it was his claim about how much it cost other people.
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