free hit counter
Christianity's Doctrine of Atonement - Page 2 - Redneck Clubhouse - Of, By and For Rednecks!

Sunday Gota Meetin' Religion and the discussion of right and wrong

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #11  
Old June 28th, 2013, 09:16 AM
Amadon's Avatar
Amadon Amadon is offline
Person of Interest
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 499
Likes Given: 24
Liked 91 in 84 Posts
Amadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really nice
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by walruskkkch View Post
I guess if you want to say, Jesus never said it, you are right. But it is in the Bible and is there for a reason. This interpretation.
When we have a conflict between what Jesus said, and what subsequent Christian writers said/say, which do you think should take precedence? From the article:

Quote:

III. WAS CHRIST'S CRUCIFIXION NECESSARY
BEFORE WE COULD HAVE ETERNAL LIFE?

According to the basic component of the Blood Atonement Doctrine, to have eternal life and salvation, Christ had to die on the cross. Moreover, many Christian Churches teach that not only did Christ have to die on the cross to atone for our sins, but one also had to believe in this doctrine before that person could have eternal life. The following are passages which contain all the verses where Jesus explicitly addresses the subject of what is required to have eternal life:

ACCORDING TO JESUS: WHAT IS REQUIRED FOR ETERNAL LIFE?

BELIEF IN JESUS:


NIV John 3:15-16

15. that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

16. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

NIV John 3:36

36. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,

NIV John 5:24

24. "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

NIV John 6:40

40. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

SUMMARY:

According to the canonical Gospel of John, one has to believe in the words of Jesus and his teachings to have eternal life. Jesus did not state that one had to believe in him AND any other Christian writers who will come after him whose writings were voted by certain human Bishops of the early church to be the "Word of God."(15) Since belief in Jesus' words were necessary to have eternal life, the question now becomes what were these words regarding personal salvation? The following passages contain all the verses where Jesus explicitly address how one may obtain eternal life:

B. FOLLOW JESUS' COMMANDMENTS:

LOVE THE FATHER AND LOVE THY NEIGHBOR


NIV Matthew 22:35-40

35. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:

36. "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"

37. Jesus replied: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'

38. This is the first and greatest commandment.

39. And the second is like it: `Love your neighbor as yourself.'

40. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

a. WHAT IS THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS?

NIV Matthew 7:12

12. So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

NIV Mark 12:28-31

28. One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29. "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: `Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

30. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'

31. The second is this: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

NIV Luke 10:25-28

25. On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26. "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

27. He answered: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, `Love your neighbor as yourself.' "

28. "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

WHO IS MY NEIGHBOR?


NIV Luke 10:36-37 (parable of the Good Samaritan)

36. "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

37. The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS JESUS LOVED



NIV John 13:34

34. "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

NIV John 15:12

12. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

NIV John 15:17

17. This is my command: Love each other.

INCLUDING THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE AND ARE MY ENEMIES?

NIV Matthew 5:43-44

43. "You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor
and hate your enemy.'
44. But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

NIV Luke 6:35

35. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

NIV Matthew 25:40

40. "The King will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

SUMMARY:

According to all four Gospels, Love is the only requisite to obtaining eternal life. Specifically, love the Heavenly Father and love one's fellow man regardless of how godless they may seem (i.e. love your enemies and the untouchable humans "Samaritan"(16)). Moreover, this love should be to the same depth as the love Jesus had for all men and women. Absent is any indication that Jesus had to die on the cross before eternal life could be obtained by the individual. In fact, according to Luke 10:25-28, Jesus specifically states that if one loves the father with all his/her heart, mind and soul and loves his neighbor as himself/herself, then that person shall have eternal life, nothing more and nothing less. To add any extra prerequisites for eternal life would contradict these explicit and unequivocal statements made by Jesus. Therefore, the requisite that one should believe the Blood Atonement Doctrine before eternal salvation can be had is an unnecessary burden placed upon the evolving mortal soul.
__________________





True religion is to know God as your Father and man as your brother. Religion is not a slavish belief in threats of punishment or magical promises of future mystical rewards.
- The Urantia Book
  #12  
Old June 28th, 2013, 09:30 AM
Thanatos144's Avatar
Thanatos144 Thanatos144 is offline
Metal Millitia
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,032
Likes Given: 306
Liked 281 in 253 Posts
Thanatos144 is a splendid one to beholdThanatos144 is a splendid one to beholdThanatos144 is a splendid one to beholdThanatos144 is a splendid one to beholdThanatos144 is a splendid one to beholdThanatos144 is a splendid one to beholdThanatos144 is a splendid one to beholdThanatos144 is a splendid one to beholdThanatos144 is a splendid one to beholdThanatos144 is a splendid one to beholdThanatos144 is a splendid one to behold
Default

someone should explain to me why certain atheist feel the need to try and disillusion peoples faith in the Christ???? How is it even affecting them? I happen to think it is a fear they have that they might be wrong so they lash out at those who have faith.

Hey [MENTION=3403]Amadon[/MENTION] believe want but you look like a asshole when you do this. It matters to us that Jesus died for our sins whether you believe it or not.
__________________
You dont silence progressives and Paulbots you allow them to show us all what fucking dummies they are.
  #13  
Old June 28th, 2013, 09:35 AM
Amadon's Avatar
Amadon Amadon is offline
Person of Interest
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 499
Likes Given: 24
Liked 91 in 84 Posts
Amadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really nice
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanatos144 View Post
someone should explain to me why certain atheist feel the need to try and disillusion peoples faith in the Christ???? How is it even affecting them? I happen to think it is a fear they have that they might be wrong so they lash out at those who have faith.

Hey [MENTION=3403]Amadon[/MENTION] believe want but you look like a asshole when you do this. It matters to us that Jesus died for our sins whether you believe it or not.
1 - I'm not an atheist.
2 - My motivation is to illuminate the teachings of Jesus, hopefully increasing people's faith in him.
__________________





True religion is to know God as your Father and man as your brother. Religion is not a slavish belief in threats of punishment or magical promises of future mystical rewards.
- The Urantia Book
  #14  
Old June 28th, 2013, 09:56 AM
walruskkkch's Avatar
walruskkkch walruskkkch is offline
They call me MR. Kitty
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Katmandhu
Posts: 6,814
Likes Given: 154
Liked 2,313 in 1,940 Posts
walruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
When we have a conflict between what Jesus said, and what subsequent Christian writers said/say, which do you think should take precedence? From the article:
You do realize the problems with this? Or are you somehow going to produce an actual audio recording of the verified voice of Jesus speaking? EVERYTHING is based upon the writings of later people. I think the only exception you can truly make are the Gospels and even then there is the question of translations and reproduction of the text over 2000 years.
__________________


Quote:
I think its unfair. We voted for Hillary Clinton, but it is Trump who won. It is unfair, Helose said.
Gentlemen, he said I don't need your organization, I've shined your shoes
I've moved your mountains and marked your cards
But Eden is burning either brace yourself for elimination
Or else your hearts must have the courage for the changing of the guards.
  #15  
Old June 28th, 2013, 11:11 AM
Amadon's Avatar
Amadon Amadon is offline
Person of Interest
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 499
Likes Given: 24
Liked 91 in 84 Posts
Amadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really nice
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by walruskkkch View Post
You do realize the problems with this? Or are you somehow going to produce an actual audio recording of the verified voice of Jesus speaking? EVERYTHING is based upon the writings of later people. I think the only exception you can truly make are the Gospels and even then there is the question of translations and reproduction of the text over 2000 years.
That's a different issue. Christians accept the Bible as authentic. Moving forward from that, let's address this contradiction.
__________________





True religion is to know God as your Father and man as your brother. Religion is not a slavish belief in threats of punishment or magical promises of future mystical rewards.
- The Urantia Book
  #16  
Old June 28th, 2013, 11:26 AM
walruskkkch's Avatar
walruskkkch walruskkkch is offline
They call me MR. Kitty
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Katmandhu
Posts: 6,814
Likes Given: 154
Liked 2,313 in 1,940 Posts
walruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant future
Default

Ahh, just gotta believe. It does come down to that, doesn't it?
__________________


Quote:
I think its unfair. We voted for Hillary Clinton, but it is Trump who won. It is unfair, Helose said.
Gentlemen, he said I don't need your organization, I've shined your shoes
I've moved your mountains and marked your cards
But Eden is burning either brace yourself for elimination
Or else your hearts must have the courage for the changing of the guards.
  #17  
Old June 28th, 2013, 11:36 AM
Midnight_Marauder's Avatar
Midnight_Marauder Midnight_Marauder is offline
Registered Beer User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Where the Buffalo Roam
Posts: 8,232
Likes Given: 7,697
Liked 2,907 in 2,357 Posts
Midnight_Marauder has a brilliant futureMidnight_Marauder has a brilliant futureMidnight_Marauder has a brilliant futureMidnight_Marauder has a brilliant futureMidnight_Marauder has a brilliant futureMidnight_Marauder has a brilliant futureMidnight_Marauder has a brilliant futureMidnight_Marauder has a brilliant futureMidnight_Marauder has a brilliant futureMidnight_Marauder has a brilliant futureMidnight_Marauder has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanatos144 View Post
someone should explain to me why certain atheist feel the need to try and disillusion peoples faith in the Christ????
I can explain that exactly, having myself been a atheist for well over 30 years, near 40.

Because those who demean, attack, belittle and harass those of faith are not atheists at all. They are merely anti-christian, anti-jew bigots who cloak themselves in the "atheist" label.

And point of fact, they do this because deep down they fear the deity, they are offended and feel threatened by it. That makes them almost more true believers than the Pope, truth to tell.

They are not atheists. Because by their actions it is quite apparent they are true believers. REAL atheists track more on the humanist side, and respect others' beliefs.
__________________
Could it be that I could be the cowboy in that mystery who died so long ago in that El Paso sand?
  #18  
Old June 28th, 2013, 11:37 AM
Amadon's Avatar
Amadon Amadon is offline
Person of Interest
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 499
Likes Given: 24
Liked 91 in 84 Posts
Amadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really niceAmadon is just really nice
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by walruskkkch View Post
Ahh, just gotta believe. It does come down to that, doesn't it?
The questions of faith and/or belief don't enter into this discussion, and I don't see why you think they are relevant. This is an examination of a contradiction between the words of Jesus as recorded in the Bible, and the atonement doctrine (also found in the Bible). Whether you think the Bible is valid or not is an entirely separate issue.
__________________





True religion is to know God as your Father and man as your brother. Religion is not a slavish belief in threats of punishment or magical promises of future mystical rewards.
- The Urantia Book

Last edited by Amadon; June 28th, 2013 at 11:39 AM.
  #19  
Old June 28th, 2013, 11:37 AM
Midnight_Marauder's Avatar
Midnight_Marauder Midnight_Marauder is offline
Registered Beer User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Where the Buffalo Roam
Posts: 8,232
Likes Given: 7,697
Liked 2,907 in 2,357 Posts
Midnight_Marauder has a brilliant futureMidnight_Marauder has a brilliant futureMidnight_Marauder has a brilliant futureMidnight_Marauder has a brilliant futureMidnight_Marauder has a brilliant futureMidnight_Marauder has a brilliant futureMidnight_Marauder has a brilliant futureMidnight_Marauder has a brilliant futureMidnight_Marauder has a brilliant futureMidnight_Marauder has a brilliant futureMidnight_Marauder has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanatos144 View Post
Hey Amadon believe want but you look like a asshole when you do this. It matters to us that Jesus died for our sins whether you believe it or not.
Clearly you've not been following Amadon's posts much. He is not a atheist he is more of a evangelist. But he's also more along the lines of a thinker-evangelist.
__________________
Could it be that I could be the cowboy in that mystery who died so long ago in that El Paso sand?
  #20  
Old June 28th, 2013, 11:55 AM
walruskkkch's Avatar
walruskkkch walruskkkch is offline
They call me MR. Kitty
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Katmandhu
Posts: 6,814
Likes Given: 154
Liked 2,313 in 1,940 Posts
walruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant futurewalruskkkch has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
The questions of faith and/or belief don't enter into this discussion, and I don't see why you think they are relevant. This is an examination of a contradiction between the words of Jesus as recorded in the Bible, and the atonement doctrine (also found in the Bible). Whether you think the Bible is valid or not is an entirely separate issue.
Sorry but the issue is not separate, it is the very core of the issue. But if you want to simplify the answer, there is no contradiction between Jesus words and Atonement, both can exist as truths simultaneously. Hence the question of belief. CHrisitians have been killing each other for centuries over these semantic arguments and in the end they will never be satisfactorily reconciled. It all comes down to belief and what you want to believe.
__________________


Quote:
I think its unfair. We voted for Hillary Clinton, but it is Trump who won. It is unfair, Helose said.
Gentlemen, he said I don't need your organization, I've shined your shoes
I've moved your mountains and marked your cards
But Eden is burning either brace yourself for elimination
Or else your hearts must have the courage for the changing of the guards.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:50 PM.

Powered by vBulletin, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content copyright ©2000 - 2018 usmessageboards.com all rights reserved